Black Dice

For more than fifteen years, New York residents Black Dice have been re-inventing and mutating punk music into wild new sonic shapes. The trio of Eric Copeland, Bjorn Copeland, and Aaron Warren have released countless albums, singles and EPs (and a book) varying from brutal hardcore, to shimmering out-of-focus drone-scapes, to discordant throbbing funk.

Having recently concluded a spell signed to Animal Collective's Paw Tracks label, Black Dice's latest album sees them strip down their sound (and equipment) to a primitive No Wave groove, as developed by the electronic punk pioneers of their adopted home city. As influenced by punk as much as they are by disco, and by their previous labels DFA and Troubleman, the band are now signed to Ribbon Music for the forthcoming release of their new album 'Mr. Impossible'. I spoke to founding member Aaron Warren about his past, present and future...

Who are Ribbon Music? How did you get hooked up with them?

Morgan's like this dude who we've known for ten years or something. We've known him for a long time, just through friends of friends and stuff. It just kinda happened organically. We've been working on this record for a long time and when we started working on it, Bjorn (Copeland, Aaron's brother and band-mate) was doing some artwork for Domino, and I think he designed the Ribbon logo, so Morgan knew we were working on new stuff. We'd been talking for the last couple of years about how we wanted to do the record and stuff, so it just came about that way.

So this guy had known your music for a while?
Yeah, yeah, totally. He's from Louisville, Kentucky, I think, but he's been in New York for around the same amount of time as we have. We've been in the same circle for at least ten years.

The new record's a lot less chilled than the last one (2009's 'Repo', released on Paw Tracks) - and it sounds much more like older Black Dice stuff - was that by design? Anything to do with the label change?
Definitely nothing to do with the label change, but something we've been talking about a lot is the music that you grow up on, and what gets you psyched when you're a teenager, and for me that was punk music, and hardcore music. I've been trying to do that music in a way that makes sense with my life now, where I'm a grown man. I can't just be playing a style of music that's like, thirty years old now. It's incorporating some of those ideas, with the progressive ideals of the band. Just trying to do something somewhat innovative, but with real limited instrumentation. That's sort of the way we work. Seeing what we can do with these really crude tools. In that way it's really similar to hardcore music. It's simple, it's easy. You know?

Yeah. It sounds like a much more informed Black Dice - the Black Dice of 2012 - playing the music you were doing at the beginning.
Yeah, yeah. It's just a response to ourselves. To the last record and to the one before that. We're always trying to do something a little different to what we just did. It also has a lot to do with the kind of shows we're doing, and the kind of shows we want to be doing. The kind of shows where people get psyched, and pumped up - and don't just stand there scratching their head. Which has happened for us.

So do you write with a mind to what you think people should do? Like, is this album made for people to throw themselves around, in the way that the last album possibly wasn't?
I think that's always been the goal for us, even as far back as Creature Comforts (2004). I think Beaches & Canyons (2002) was the last record we made without an audience in mind. We're always talking about creating this celebratory party vibe and stuff like that, and I think we're just a little more effective at translating that to the music right now, than we have been in the past, 'cause like something that's upbeat and aggro sounding to us can sound like it's just a fun party tune, but when it comes out on the record and when we're playing it out - especially in another country or something like that - sometimes it just doesn't translate to audiences. We always have an idea of the ideal audience, this fantasy version of what we want, but we don't really go to shows any more. We don't really know what's going on. When we were writing these tunes we were totally in a vacuum. We have an idea of what this fantasy show would be like, but until we're out there we have no idea of what shows are like these days.

Black Dice. Photograph by Barbara Soto

But I'm guessing when you formed the band you were aware of a lot of what other people were doing. Are you not any more?
Yeah, I mean... I still make an effort to try to keep up, and read about music, and find out what's going on. I listen to stuff online and what not. I don't buy a lot of records, either new or used, just because of the position I'm in with my life just now. I'm older, and I have a kid, so I don't have the disposable income for that like I did when I was in college, y'know? My life has just changed. The actual music is as important to me as it's ever been, it's just a lot more diverse. What I'm listening to now is like 50s rock, doo-wop, free jazz and hip-hop. And that's not the music I was listening to when I was starting a band. Fifteen years ago I was only interested in seven inches, and albums coming out on independent labels. Indie rock and hardcore was pretty much all I was into. I think it's just about being honest with yourself, and the stuff you're interested in. If I was more interested in digging up the new stuff I could do it. Everyone has access to that. There's a lot of good new stuff out there. I like this band Hype Williams. They're from the UK, they're pretty cool.

Can you chart the musical changes in Black Dice based on what you've been listening to?
No, I think there's more to it than that. To do a band for more than two or three years, I think it's hard to make that band fit with all these different phases of your life. We've become adults during the course of this band, we're totally different dudes. As such, we are listening to totally different stuff from era to era, but I think more than anything it's trying to figure out how to get a song to do what you want it to. But before, some of the songs were experimental to the point where it was like "Well, we were trying to do this, but we ended up doing this. And that's cool". Now it's more about what we want it to do.

How much does New York have to do with your music? You moved there to do the band. Could the band exist anywhere else?
I think it has a lot to do with it. It's tough to live here. There's a lot of distractions - a lot of weird stuff that messes with your head here. There's so many different paths to success here, and different kinds of success you can have here. You'll constantly have friends and peers who are like, all of a sudden, doing really well at something. It can mess with your head. And it's expensive to live here, which provides a certain challenge. To be able to work within that challenge. I think that's an environment that comes out in the music. But on the flipside to all that, there's the people. Access to so many brilliant people, all these really cool people who are turning you on to all these brilliant ideas. There's access to every kind of culture. There's all this cool shit going on. It's the best and the worst place for a lot of reasons, and all those things definitely come out in the music.

Can you give give me a rundown of what gear you're using live just now?
Sure, it's really the most basic set-up we've ever had, that we have right now. I just have a MPC sampler, and a microphone, and a mixer, and some effects. Eric has a Mini Disc player, a mixer and a microphone, and some effects. Bjorn plays guitar and he has a Boss sampler, and some effects. It's the least gear we've ever used. By far.

You use technology, but you're quite anti-technology at the same time. Do you think it's good now how anybody can make an album, and get it out there? Or publish a book? Is it good or is it an avalanche of sub-standard stuff?
I think you've always been able to do that. Within the lifetime of our band, anyway. You've always been able to record your own band, and put out your own record. You might not have been using a computer to do it, but I think that the computer makes it easier - and makes it more instantaneous - is just really exciting. I think it's awesome.

Don't you think it dilutes anything? You used to walk into a record shop, and all the stuff you liked would be there. Now you go on Soundcloud or YouTube, and there's just millions of things to hear.
Well yeah, sure. But it's just like you're in a bigger record store. I guess. It just depends how you want to come across it. Like, if you're on someone's blog, and it only has a dozen things on it that month, then it's pretty easy to come across stuff. But if you're on Pitchfork or iTunes, then that shit's changing by the hour, and you might not come across something so easily. When I was growing up, I think some of the most rewarding music things were the things I did come across on my own, or came about through a weird connection. Like somebody who wasn't even a friend, turning me onto some weird music. It still happens, but it just happens in a more modern way.

Did you ever skate?
No, and it's probably my biggest regret in life - that I never learned to skateboard well. I always had friends who skated, and Bjorn and Eric did. In the last couple of years I've become really obsessed with the Epicly Later'd show. It really makes me yearn to have known how to do that, and to have lived that life. If there's anything I could do to have learned to have done that from when I was ten years old, I would do that!

Not everyone on Epicly Later'd has been somebody to aspire to though...
It's interesting, I see so many similarities between that world and the sort of world that we're in. Some people are just exploring the artistic side to it, and have absolutely no head for business, and no idea of how to live any kind of other life, apart from the act of doing it. You know what I'm saying? I relate to that aspect of it so well, because in a lot of ways that's how we've been as a band sometimes. But then there's people who've just persevered through so many different movements of skating, and I look at that, and I'm kinda like "Well, that's kinda like us too" sometimes. I think the full spectrum of it, from the people who just flame out to the people who can go on and on, it's fascinating to me. It's really cool.

What are the band's plans for 2012? Are you coming to the UK?
Yeah, we're doing a US tour in May, then we're gonna just chill during the summer months - maybe play some festivals - and then we're gonna play some shows in Europe and in the UK in September.

Stu Graham

If you can skate Livi you can pretty much skate anywhere. The park - and its parties - are bigger, rougher, faster and gnarlier than photographs or video could ever show. Having been raised next to its hallowed concrete waves, Stu Graham now shralps parks all over the world with the grace and finesse of an out-of-control cannonball after two bottles of Buckfast, except twice as fast and ten times as dangerous. Obviously we needed to know what music is fueling his on-going rampage...

What's your favourite skate video, music-wise?
Probably Wheels of Fire. I was only about six or seven maybe, when I saw it. I just remember it being really American, really Californian.

Have you got a favourite section track?
Ah, man... There's so many. Hundreds. Recently, I really liked the tune from Arto Saari's part in Mind Field. Fuck, who was it? I cannae think.

I know. I'm hungover. It was one of those bands all the Americans were into at the time.
Aye. I'm just baked right now, and I cannae remember shit. (It was 'Atlas', by Battles)

What's your favourite album of all time?
Holy shit. Haha! I'm sitting with my mate just now and he just said "That's a big fucking question!" I'm into the craziest genres of music, I listen to hella bluegrass... There's so much, just endless amounts. Flatt and Scruggs probably!

What was the first album you bought with your own money?
It was a Public Enemy album! What one was it again... Shit, I cannae remember! I need to remember.

What was on the cover?
It was a really fuckin' dark cover, and Flav had a white clock. All of them are dressed in black as well. Everybody's dressed in black but Flav has this white clock.

Yo! Bum Rush The Show?
Aye. I remember buying it because I only had one black mate when I was a wee guy, and he was with me when I bought it. Haha! At that time he'd been showing me loads of hip-hop. That's what got me into it. He took me down and showed me some shit! I think I was ten, or maybe eleven. It was way before high school anyway!

Have you got favourite album artwork?
Probably (Metallica's) Ride The Lightning, man!

Cool. Have you got any songs that you play to get yourself psyched to try something?
Fuck, man! I listen to hella bluegrass when I skate, cos it's really fast. The pickin' and the bass is usually really fast so it's usually bluegrass I skate to nowadays. Maybe Ricky Skaggs, Flatt and Scruggs again, or Chet Atkins. Loads of stuff.

What was the first gig you went to?
Aaahhh... This is totally gay. It was the Manic Street fuckin' Preachers. I was only 14 man, it was when they very first came out! It wasn't recent or anything! It was when the Forum was in Livi, remember that? That's where they had all the big gigs. In fact, I saw the Prodigy there as well. That was after, but that was some shit! It was the first time I got intae some drugs, I think!

So you play music then?
I've not got a band or anything, I just like to play myself. Just pickin' away myself. I'm not that good. I can play with the guy I'm with just now, if we sit down and talk about what it is we're gonna do we can get something going, but I cannae just jam with folk yet.
Basically, I came back from the States - to Livi - and a guy I knew all through school was playing the guitar and doing lessons, and I pretty much just started learning off him. Within the last four years I've learned to play guitar, bass and banjo. Pretty hyped.

What's the best gig you've seen?
Definitely Hank Williams III. It was down in Manchester at Tez Robinson's stag night. It was quality. Something that Cubic set up. It was pretty rad!

What was the last music you acquired?
Lynyrd Skynyrd. Loads of Lynyrd Skynyrd. I've been looking out a bunch of that shit. That 'Simple Man' tune, I've been trying to learn how to play that.

How do you choose the music for you sections?
They usually just tell me! They're like "We've edited your part, and it goes good to this tune. What do you think?" Haha! Saying that, with that Osiris part, I did have a wee bit of say in that.

The Pogues.
Aye, 'The Boys From County Hell'. With that tune, I can play the start of it, and I've always been super hyped on it. My da was really into the Pogues, and it's just a tune I can remember from being a wee guy, y'know? That's why I used that.

Are there any companies you think use really shitty music in their videos?
Aw... This is pretty harsh, isn't it? It's like "How much do you want to hate on somebody right now?" Haha! This is probably gonna make you laugh, but you know what I absolutely hate the most? Div and all those guys in the States have even been talking about it too. You know Shralp Ya Bass (Scottish video blog), all those wee clips that Dickson's been putting up? Dude, I love the clips, I love the skating, I cannae get enough of Colin man, I love watching them! But see the way... There'll be like a rock fakie and everybody's like "YEEAAAAHHH!!!" And it's like, "Dude, will you all just shut the fuck up so I can watch this?!" Honestly, I hope you put that in because I've said to Dickson. If they were doing something pretty sick then it's fair enough, but will yous all just shut the fuck up so I can watch this clip?

I'm wearing an SYB t-shirt right now. I'll pass that on.
Classic. Yes! It's just that it's rad as fuck, because Scotland's never had anything, and it's rad that Dickson and they guys are actually doing it, but it's like Kerr and all they goons just shout all the time. I'm like "Dude, will you just shut up man? These dudes are smashing it and yous are just blowin' it by shouting in the clips". It's fuckin' bullshit! Haha!

Stu's up at 5:40, but you should really watch all of this.

What are your plans for 2012 then?
I'm still trying to get my green card stuff organised. If that ever happens I'll be fuckin' out of here as fast as I can fuckin' get out! I've got a video part coming out too, in this new Creature video they're bringing out. I haven't even started filming for it yet... They're sending over a filmer, he should be here in February.

A Livi section in a Creature video then?
There'll be some Livi in it, but they've got some crazy-ass ideas! We're not even gonna be in the UK much!

Once again, so much good stuff here - Stu's at 4:50

Jennifer Herrema

She formed influential gutter sleaze-punk metal outfit Royal Trux when she was fifteen, went on to lead the gilt-edged trash of 70s-rock 'themed' RTX (Rad Times Xpress), spent time modelling for Calvin Klein (simultaneously, it is said, bringing 'heroin chic' to the mainstream) and now Jennifer Herrema returns with the totally righteous Black Bananas - the new old rock sound of a denim and leather bar-room brawl between Mötley Crüe and the Stooges in a paralleL.A. She makes music, designs clothes for Volcom, surfs and hangs out. Time I spoke to her.

Is Black Bananas more than just a name change? What demanded the creation of Black Bananas?
It hasn't really changed... It's the same people, but we've been working on the record for a while, and as time went on we just noticed that we were adding a lot more elements to it and using more diverse instrumentation. Right when we finished the record I was like "This definitely has aspects of RTX, and me and the stuff we've done before, but it's totally taken to another level", so we just decided to re-christen it. Just give it another name. It wasn't until after the whole record was done that we decided that it had a personality of its own, and demanded a new identity... As it were.

So it's a step beyond a RTX album?
Yeah, yeah. I mean... When I listen to it, I can tell it's us, but I can also tell that we've taken it a lot further and threw a lot more into the kettle, y'know?

How long did it take to get the album together?
Well the thing is, whenever we're recording it's not like we stop... We don't work on stuff and then be like "Ok, it's time to make a record" and then just jump in and do it. I mean I don't work! I just do music and surf and hang around... Basically we're working on stuff every day. It's been, like, three years since the last RTX album and we had already started... Like 'TV Trouble', that song, I wrote that like a month after the last record came out. But it was figuring out how I wanted to incorporate it on a record. So for three years we've just been fuckin' around y'know, buying new gear and experimenting and exploring Ableton. I set up the whole stereo system at the studio. Before that we didn't have a stereo over there so we never really listened to music because we were always in the process of making music, but we had such a long drawn-out time, and we wanted to take our time and enjoy ourselves. I've got this huge vinyl collection and we've all been listening to the same stuff - like stuff from when I was a kid - so over the past three years we've really gelled into a separate identity. I just feel like it's time that we take RTX out of the equation because stuff seems to always be overshadowed by that name, unfortunately. I never wanted to capitulate, because I consider anything that I do to be part of my body of work, which has always been - since I was fifteen - RTX. It doesn't mean that I can't name something different and bring myself to it.

So what were you listening to when you were growing up? Most people I know didn't come to your music through Ratt, or Mötley Crüe or whoever; they came to it through indie rock or something.
When I was a kid growing up, I would go with my older cousin to see Mötley Crüe, you know, all that kind of stuff. Those were the big stadium shows, and I was exposed to that music very early on, as well as punk rock, which had all-ages shows where I could go and see the Bad Brains when I was like twelve. So there's a Bad Brains influence in there too, but also, I was the only white kid in my entire neighbourhood. For miles and miles. It was all go-go, and rap, and funk, and that's the kind of stuff I'd hear day to day. Like, we'd be out in the alley hearing that doing Double Dutch. There were no white people. Funkadelic is one of my all-time favourites, and you've got Zapp, the Garbage Can Band, the Go-Go Band and then you've got Experience Unlimited, Rare Essence... Just a lot of cool DC funk, but not just DC - there was a huge prevalence. But that was the music that I grew up with in my neighbourhood. But then all my older cousins, they weren't from my 'hood at all so I was exposed to a lot of different music. I'm really lucky that I have an appreciation for all different types of music. I felt like, early on by introducing stuff that was so hugely exciting to me as a kid, like fuckin' Mötley Crüe or whoever, that people who liked 'college rock' or 'art rock' or whatever would like those things too if they were allowed. If somebody were to tell them that it's ok, that it's not not cool to listen to some of these sounds.

Is there anything new you're listening to?
Well, I just listened to the new Sleigh Bells track. I just got it this morning. I thought that was pretty cool. We're gonna go on tour with them. They wrote me, they were really inspired by Royal Trux, so I think it's gonna be fun. There's this other band called Nü Sensae, they're Canadian and they're a two piece. I listened to a couple of their songs and I'm into it. I haven't listened to a whole lot of new stuff, I'm just starting to, because we've just finished the record. When we were listening to music in the studio we weren't listening to Pitchfork top-twenty shit, y'know? We were listening to old stuff. I know there's stuff out there... Fuck, what's going on? Are you into anything in particular I should check out?

The Peaking Lights record was really good, it's this dubbed-out analogue psychedelia. You'd like it. And there's an amazing remix version of it out now too. You should check that out. What non-musical things influence you?
Visuals, TV, the news, parties...

The visual stuff for Black Bananas looks really good. I saw a really cool one earlier today with all this found footage of explosions and car chases and shit.
The Rad Times Xpress promo video? That one was this guy, he's a fan, and we met him once years ago when we were playing in New York. He's been following my music for ever. Like, since back in early Royal Trux days. So he's got a great insight into the whole pastiche, the collage aspect, of what Royal Trux grew out of and what I've always tried to keep as a central theme of what I do. It's never just one thing, it's always a mish-mash of shit I love, and am influenced by and stuff. He really nailed it. He wrote saying he wanted to do it, and asking about the different images and stuff, and I was just "Dude, do it!" I did not have anything to do with the making of that but the music is what inspired him - and his intense knowledge of what I've done in the past - and I think he's done a great job! I'm way into it.

What's happening with Volcom just now?
I got Kim Gordon hooked up with them so she's gonna put out a bunch of t-shirts with them. That's coming out pretty soon. I just spoke to her this morning, so we're gonna do an interview with her to help market that. I have a new denim line that's coming out for Fall 2012 that I'm just starting to see the samples for, and then for for Holiday 2012 I've got a jewellery collaboration with this jeweller Pamela Love. She's awesome, she's a sick designer. She and I are doing a jewellery collaboration for Volcom. There's this sick illustrator who's illustrated various t-shirts of me and Pamela in these psychedelic situations, and that t-shirt line will come out in Holiday too.

That's a while away.
Yeah! I'm also really excited about Fuct, you know the dude that runs Fuct?

Eric something.
Yeah, Eric Brunetti! I'm meeting him and his wife at the end of the month, and we're gonna do like a solid amber natural perfume collaboration. We're going to start working on that before I go on tour, so that's gonna be exciting.

How does working with companies like Volcom and Fuct compare to working with somebody like Calvin Klein?
They're awesome. They don't take themselves too seriously, and it's not just all 'business business' all the time. There's a lot of people who have been there since the very beginning that just grew with the company and just learned as they went along, so they're not just straight out of business college or something. They're actual real people. I admire them for keeping on the real people.

I admire them for employing Michael Sieben...
Ah, yeah, Michael Sieben's awesome! And then the stuff that they just did with John Baldessari and the stuff that they're doing with Kim Gordon. Black Bananas have been doing music with (artists) Justin Lowe and Jonah Freeman, and we just did this performance for the MOCA - the Museum of Contemporary Art - and these dudes are just sick. They're making a video with our music, but we've kind of been incorporated into their art, and they're going to do some artist t-shirts. I hooked them up with Volcom. Their t-shirts will be super sick. I can't wait to see the finished ones. You should check those ones out, you'll like 'em.

Are you planning to tour Europe with this Black Bananas record?
We want to! People are asking us. We've had so many different booking agents over there... The idea was to come over early Fall, but we will see. Drag City can handle all that shit. Dates and times, and who's handling what.

Have you been surfing much lately?
No. I've been really sick. Not sick like... You know. Haha! But I went in about a month ago and it was the worst, I had a terrible ear infection. It happens sometimes. I had to have shots of antibiotics, my ears were so infected. I'm not much into surfing in the cold, so I'm not missing it right now.

Are you around skateboarding much?
Kurt, my boyfriend, skates all the time. I haven't skateboarded since I was 19. I had to have both of my knees drained with needles, I had water on the knee. My knees suck so bad. I've jumped on one and gone down the street, but that's about it. All those dudes over at Volcom skate every day. Every day.

Cool, well, I think I've got everything. Unless there's anything I've missed?
I dunno. Haha! Make something up if you need more.

So what's that, you're in love with me?
There you go! Stick that in. We can start some whole rumour shit! Haha!

GZA

Back in 1995, Wu-Tang founding member GZA became responsible for arguably the Clan's finest solo album - Liquid Swords - and rather than leaving it at that, he's been writing, collaborating and touring ever since. Bite My Wire caught up with him while he was in the UK promoting the forthcoming (RZA produced!) Liquid Swords II - The Return of the Shadowboxer.

You've been speaking to scientists to seek inspiration for the new album. What are you hoping to learn this time?

I'm not looking to learn anything specific. At MIT (Massachusetts Institute of Technology) and anywhere else I try to expand my knowledge to inspire me as a person, which impacts my writing. Back in December I met specifically with geneticists, quantum physicists and marine biologists as well as my homeboy, author Junot Diaz.

There's often been an apocalyptic vibe to your music, and 2012 has long been considered to be bringing the end of the world with it. Is this a theme in the new album?
The apocalypse is not a theme of my new album. I can't discuss what it's about yet. However, it's going to be amazing. Like me on facebook.com/thegza or follow me on Twitter @TheRealGZA for the most timely and accurate updates.

You were the first of the Wu to sign a solo deal. How did it feel, did it freak you out? 

Short of my family or myself being in danger, nothing really "freaks me out", it's just not in my DNA. It felt great to know that all my hard work was going to be heard on a large scale.

There was a massive shift in how hip-hop sounded, looked and worked when the Wu went global. Do you feel comfortable knowing you're still ahead of the game, or does the responsibility you have with each release freak you out? 
I've never considered myself to be "ahead of the game". I simply do my best at every outing. If that puts me in a certain strata, I'm grateful, but I don't feel like I'm in some kind of race.

Nowadays everybody has every piece of music ever recorded available to them, a few mouse clicks away. Does it affect how you make and promote your music? And how you get paid?

Creatively, I think the democratization of the music industry is a good thing. However I, like all artists - of course - suffered economically with the advent of digitization. It doesn't change how I make music but it does influence how I market it.

Technology seems to have pushed out a lot of the dirt in hip-hop. Do you still aim for a rawness?

I'm not sure that technology and rawness are mutually exclusive. But I aim for excellence, sometimes that's raw, sometimes that's polished. Depends on the song.

There's some pretty crazy 'evolution' happening in hip-hop just now. Is there any new stuff there you're digging?
When I'm in writing mode, which I am now, I don't listen to much current stuff.

Whole-album tours seem to be happening more and more now. Was it fun for you to tour Liquid Swords, playing it in its entirety?

It was - and still is - humbling and amazing to be able to perform an album that was released 16 years ago.

Your words are complex. Do you every write lyrics with just single meanings? Should we be looking for message and meaning underneath the surface of all your jams?

My lyrics can have single meanings but that doesn't make them any less complex. I don't like to tell my audience how to listen to my music. Everyone brings their own experience to any given situation so if they choose to seek deeper meaning, so be it. If not, there are many levels at which to enjoy any piece of art, be it a book, painting, film, sculpture or anything else.

Do you think chess skills can help a person live their life? Like how to weigh up a situation, look at options, examine the risk... Would it be wise to think like that?

Chess has become a part of my life in the same way that people say martial arts is a part of their lives. It's like a philosophy, life guide, mental discipline, all rolled into one. That being said, integrating the game's philosophies and strategies into your life is only as useful as the skill and mental discipline of the player.

Grant Hart

From his role as drummer and co-vocalist/songwriter in legendary 1980s US hardcore genre-definers Hüsker Dü, to his time at the front of critically acclaimed post-hardcore outfit Nova Mob, to his solo albums, to being the man behind a bewildering musical interpretation of Milton's epic story-of-creation Paradise Lost, Grant Hart is anything but unfocused. Since winning a battle with heroin while simultaneously losing (a moral) one with his Hüsker Dü counterpart Bob Mould, he's been writing and touring like a maniac. As we await the release of his take on Milton's 17th-century masterpiece, we stopped him at a recent show for a few words...

Grant Hart. Photograph by Hanna Pribitzer.

What's happening tonight?
Tonight people are going to hear a wide variety of things. From old favourites to stuff from my soon-to-be-released album which I've called 'The Argument'. It's based on Paradise Lost by John Milton, but I've decided to avoid the title, because if you Google 'Paradise Lost' you're gonna find all manner of odd stuff. Whether it's heavy metal or whatever. It's a very loaded pair of words.

How do you even begin to approach this? It's a massive piece of writing.
Well, I decided very early that I was going to make no attempt to compose in order of things occurring in the Milton. By hopping around a bit I was able to make chunks of it coagulate, and then you link the chunks together. Along the line you notice when you have to become more interested in the greater work. You're gonna write what appeals the most to you, and the thing that I have noticed about other people's adaptations of Paradise Lost was that it was very concentrated in the early books of it, and then all of a sudden Adam and Eve are getting kicked out of the garden. It goes straight from the gates of hell to eating the apple from the tree.

The edited highlights.
Yeah. Of course these are interesting bits. There's a lot of material in the original that can be found elsewhere, so I didn't put a lot of emphasis on 're-writing the Old Testament'.

Are there any parallels in what Paradise Lost is about to the sentiment behind (Nova Mob's) Last Days Of Pompeii?
(Long pause) They've very climactic stories. I never really gave it a great deal of thought, but... Last Days Of Pompeii doesn't really take in any elements of jealousy and forgiveness, or vindication or vengeance. Y'know? This is more emotional. Did you have to read it in school?

No, never. I only properly came to know it when I saw an illustrated version of it. Do you consider this a Grant Hart solo album?
I'm working with a couple of extra musicians, but they're more or less playing what I've chosen for them to play. It's one of the closest relationships between me and an engineer that I've ever had. I'm working with Mike Wisti who did three quarters of (Grant's previous solo album) Hot Wax.

Is that relationship a result of the success you had with Hot Wax?
 A lot of times a person's actions can be compared to sleepwalking. You steer away from disasters and you don't even think of following a path that works. When you walk into a room you know where the light switch is, so you throw your hand up at that particular time. It's only when the light doesn't come on that you really give it much consideration. To draw conclusion from that, you continue doing things that work for you - you change it according to the ideas that you have, and if you have an idea to fine-tune whatever, you polish that up. Sometimes success is - and I don't mean financial success, I mean artistic success - can be defined by the absence of failure.

There aren't that many musical takes of poetry.
Pop music has got very dull. It's just a repetitive process. I was playing this for a friend of mine as we were driving up to London from Brighton and we were kind of, like, strapped for what to call it. It's not an opera, the closest thing we could define it as would be a musical. That was part of the inception of it. Something that could be staged as an entire work. I made the decision early on that I was going to avoid writing stuff that couldn't stand independently of the project, so a lot of the major songs in it have meanings elsewhere in the world, and not just in the context of the greater work.

So because the basis for the work already exists, in the form of the poem, and it's a poem that you're obviously a fan of...
Well, I - like you, and anybody that's read it in the last hundred years - was attracted to the Gustave Doré illustrations, which are very dramatic, very cataclysmic. It gives you an idea of what has been drummed into people's heads. It's up to me if I repeat it or resist it.

So which is it?
Both.

A lot of bands reform these days to play their 'best' album live. 18 year-old kids have seen Sonic Youth and the Melvins play their old songs now. What do you make of that?
There's a lot of things going on with the heads of those people. I'm disinclined to move in that direction. I could see conditions being imaginable that would make somebody want to go for that. I have new ideas that I want to give and chance, and give some time to. Not necessarily in the case of Sonic Youth or the Melvins, but there's a lot of bands out there who feel that Nirvana or Smashing Pumpkins, any of those early-to-mid nineties 'super punk' acts got all the glory that everybody worked for throughout the eighties. Y'know? I don't look at it the same, I think that there's a price that you pay for being ahead of the ballgame. Not cashing in is the result of that.

Do any of the bands who cite Hüsker Dü as an influence impress you?
The event of me hearing a song that I didn't write, and thinking to myself, "Man, I wish I would've written that one" is the closest to that that is gonna happen. When somebody says they're influenced by me, or influenced by Hüsker Dü, I shouldn't be able to hear the influence. I should just be able to hear it and go "Oh, nice song!"

Can you hear your own influence in any of Bob Mould's post-Hüsker Dü stuff? He's been quite unkind in the press.
In Bob's repertoire there are a couple of songs where I think, "Man, that's a great song", almost to the point where I wish I wrote it. I doesn't happen that frequently, but it's not impossible. What people have to realise, is that neither Bob nor I have worked with anybody for as long as we worked with each other. I think when you have a situation like that you can't really determine what people are saying when they're reflecting back on that.

Are there songs of yours you think he wishes he'd written?
Given the same conditions, it would stand to reason that it'd be possible, y'know? With Bob's psyche, and with Bob's apparent emotional injury by me, it would be the biggest surprise in the world to ever hear him admit something like that. Bob is a very sensitive writer. He explores the depths of his pain with his music, and I wish that he could put it into the words that explain to me what it is that I did to hurt him so badly.

Do you think about that much?
I'm answering questions in an interview, y'know? But that's not to say I'm not concerned with his well being. He is a very important person in my life, and I would assume that any conflict between us will eventually become meaningless to either both of us or one of us.

Do you have a release date for this record?
We're still sorting out some things. It's hard to believe that there is no UK label that will take a 'risk' on England's greatest epic poem. I'll find someone before I'm done with London!

What are your plans beyond this record?
Having experienced the situation before, where you release something that you think is pretty major, and you have to follow that with something, I've given some thought-time to the old "How am I going to follow this?" There's a few ideas that I'm investigating, but I have no need. I'm not going to be disappointed if the next record is just going to be an ordinary record. They can't all be Paradise Lost, right?

Walls

Italian-English electronic duo Walls have recently returned from a tour of America with the mighty Battles, and are enjoying some amazing press for 'Coracle', their second full-length album. Acclaimed across the board, with 'Album of the Month' accolades from everyone from Vice and NME to Mojo and the Guardian, Sam Willis and Alessio Natalizia's shimmering analogue future-dub joins the dots between Four Tet, Burial, Animal Collective and Nicolas Jaar while it blurs the boundaries between Chicago House, shoegaze and Krautrock. People are starting to wise up to Walls, thanks in part to the band's label - Cologne's impeccable Kompakt - so we spoke to Sam before they get too big to talk to people like me...

Walls. Photograph by Robert Bellamy.

How was the Battles tour? What kind of places were you playing in? Did you get to go record shopping?

It was amazing! The venues were mostly around 1000 capacity, often theatres... We got to see the Redwood Forest and Mount Rushmore. Also, getting to go to the less travelled parts of the US like Idaho, Minnesota, Ohio, Montana and so on was fascinating, the real America basically! The Battles guys have been super welcoming and friendly, we get on great together. We went to Amoeba Music in LA which is massive - we were happy to see that they'd racked out our album with a nice description! Also we went to Powell's Bookstore in Portland which was a real treat - it's huge and has an incredible selection. Such a welcoming and cosy environment. The sad thing is that it's hard to imagine a business like that getting off the ground nowadays...

What's your live set-up? How much of your studio gear can you take on tour with you?

We have a bunch of hardware - samplers, sequencers, monosynths, lots of delay pedals and mixers.. It's a real pain to travel with, but it's so much more fun when we're playing. Using a laptop was never really an option!

It hasn't taken you long to put two albums out on Kompakt. Did you have your debut ready to go when you signed? How did your deal with them come about?

Yeah, we had already composed a bunch of tracks before they asked us to do the record. Originally it was due to be an EP but we decided to expand it into a short album. It took us about six months of work. It was mostly original compositions but some older stuff was cannibalised as part of the process! We've been friends with the guys there for a while and would always talk on email. It all just happened very quickly and naturally, and when the first tracks came together they were the natural first choice for our music!

Did you get a trolley-dash of the Kompakt warehouse when you signed?

More a dash through the Kompakt archives - they have an incredible back catalogue. The GAS boxset reissue was a particularly prized acquisition, alongside some of the earlier label compilations... Things were a lot more raw and minimal in those days!

What other labels are you digging just now?

We love what our friends at Border Community do...

The new album sounds a lot more rhythmic than the first one. Is this a reflection of what you've been listening to in the last year or so?

It's more a reflection on us playing a lot of live shows to be honest. With the first record, we were really exploring where we wanted to take our collaboration. We really enjoy making people dance, but also tripping them out! 

What have you been listening to anyway? Has it changed much since Alessio moved to London? 

We're always discovering new stuff that excites us, of all different genres and eras. It seems crazy to us that the vast majority of people focus so strongly on the music being released now when there's so much incredible stuff out there. We've got the entire history of recorded music at our fingertips!

Can you elaborate?

Loads of individual tracks. It all depends on the time and context really. Personally I've been getting really into going back and listening to classic pop records from the 70s, just to marvel over the wonderful analogue sound. And the masterful production, joyous melodies and songwriting! Like Carly Simon's 'You're So Vain' for example - putting a song like that alongside Lady Gaga really makes you wanna weep about how music is going...

You're getting a lot of praise in the press - is it possible to continue doing what you do without paying too much attention to this? 

We just carry on making music all the time regardless. We try our best not to be swayed by other people's opinions on what we do. For us to release anything, it has to be something that we both really love. We've come this far by staying true to ourselves, so that's the simple plan for the future too!

Do you see much of each other? How much of the writing is done together? Is everything recorded and mastered with the pair of you present?

We see each other pretty much every day at some point. We do quite a bit of both writing apart and together, that definitely yields different results, so it's fun to play with the process in that way.
 

What kind of different results? How much would it affect your music if you lived in the same house? Like The Monkees.

We'd go crazy living in the same house! we definitely enjoy our work together, but it's vital to have separate space to develop ideas, explore new possibilities with plugins and equipment that we can then bring back into the fold

You endlessly get referred to as either krautrock, shoegaze, or both. Does that offend you?

It's fine, it's pointless trying to fight against that stuff!

It's great that your LPs come packaged with the CD too. What's your thinking behind this? Most people only bother putting in a download redemption code.

That's Kompakt's idea. We're really happy about it, as it means that people can buy the vinyl and still have the CD too. We must prefer the aesthetic of the LP anyway, it's a much more pleasing format!

There's talk of the majors phasing out CD albums now. Do you think vinyl might actually outlast CDs?

Absolutely, it's just so much more of a pleasing format than a jewel case CD, although we understand that some people really treasure their CD collection... It's always going to change for successive generations, each format means something different. We grew up in the 80s, just as CD was starting to come in, so that seems somehow the more authentic medium 

Where and when were you skating?

Back in the mid 90s, in the heyday of Tom Penny and Geoff Rowley, and around the Manchester gasworks area. I still love to watch the odd skate video now and then - 'Video Days' has to be a favourite!

Can you think of any videos that stand out, musically, from the past?

I'm really bad with titles, but I remember hearing Mobb Deep 'Shook Ones' for the first time via a skate video, and that was really one of the first tracks to turn me on to hip-hop properly. (BMW guesses Sam heard this on Rick Jaramillo's 'Profile' in 411 #24).

Nik Freitas

Former Thrasher photographer Nik Freitas has released five albums since leaving the magazine in 2002, toured with Bright Eyes, Grandaddy and Rilo Kiley and he still finds time to skate. His new record 'Saturday Night Underwater' is out now.

Nik Freitas.

Who, or what inspires you to create music? Do you consciously sit down to write songs?

I think the inspiration starts as a feeling, and it can happen pretty much whenever. I hate to say it, but I think the best stuff starts happening when you're feeling down and shitty about something. Or pissed off. It usually starts as a melody, with maybe a few words. I don't really sit down and try to write a song anymore, if you do that, it usually ends up sounding forced and fake. It's been the case that for the past few years that I usually have a song written out in my head before I sit down with a guitar or at a piano, and by that point I'm just trying to figure out the chords to what I'm hearing in my head. 

Do you think pro skateboarders nowadays have a different attitude to those in the 80s and 90s? What do you think of all the changes skateboarding's been through?

To be honest, I haven't really kept up with skateboarding. I've occasionally tried to check out some new videos and stuff, but that's about it. Everyone looks pretty much the same from what I've seen. Don't get me wrong, I mean, the tricks they're doing now are mind-blowing - a switch backside lipslide down a handrail is just insane. It's sick. But at the same time it almost seems robotic, like a video game. When I grew up skating, there was so much style involved. Each skater had his own way of doing tricks. Tom Knox doing a kickflip looked totally different to when Salman Agah did one. There was no 'right' way to do a trick. Any way you did it was dope. Now with all the videos and video games, everyone's kickflip looks the same. I remember it was so hard to learn a kickflip, and if you could to do a kickflip, you were super good. It took me forever to figure it out... Just trying to land one took forever! Now kids have videos on 'how' to do a kickflip. We didn't have that. A kid now learns how to do a kickfip in the first week of skating. He can barely ride down the street but knows how to do a 360 flip. It's so crazy.

Do you think modern skate videos have lost their soul? It's all about HD cameras and composed soundtracks now. 

Again, I haven't really kept up with the videos, but I think a composed soundtrack to a skate video is a great idea. I'd love to do a music soundtrack for a skate video. You can't fight the progression of stuff. Music, movies, art, skate videos... It's gonna change. Maybe it loses some 'soul' along the way, but what are you gonna do? When I started, skating was dead. I was the only person that skated in my class when I graduated high school. It was such a revolutionary time period, when street skating was really starting to begin - the possibilities seemed endless - dudes were doing so much cool shit. You had to really use your imagination to come up with new stuff. 

Do you think skateboarders are naturally creative people?

Totally. At least that's how it was when I was growing up skating. I got into skating for exactly that reason. I was drawn to it. The artwork, the vibe... I loved being in the streets, you see things differently and you're just part of everything around you. I remember skating for miles, just pushing for like, hours, to go skate some curbs in a parking lot. If someone asked you where you were going, they wouldn't even understand it!  You weren't in a car protected from the world around. When you were on your board skating, you were in the middle of it. Regular people see a red painted curb and they think, "I can't park there", whereas when I see a red painted curb I think "5-0 grind!"

Nik Freitas

What are your favourite places in the world? Places that either skateboarding or music have taken you?

New York City. Prague. Paris. I love Europe. There are a lot of great cities in the U.S. too. I love Austin, Nashville, Athens and New Orleans.

Do you have a home-studio set up?

Heck yeah. I record all my records at home. I'm really into recording gear, the old vintage stuff. Old synthesizers. I love the way it sounds. 

What pictures in skateboard magazines stood out to you?

So many! I was a big fan of Tobin Yelland's photos. His photos really captured the whole thing, not just the trick, but just everything involved in it. There was a real mood in his photographs.

Did you get into photography through skating, or vice versa?

I grew up skating, so I got into photography through that. It just seemed to co-exist to me. I took a class on the basics of photography and started taking my camera everywhere when I went skating with my friends.I tried to make my pictures look like the ones in the mags. After a few years I started sending my photos to Thrasher, and eventually they thought they were good enough, and they printed them in the magazine. I just kept at it for many years. Eventually they asked me to be on the staff. Jake Phelps was my boss.

What was the story behind Rowley socking Phelps? He's not the only person to have done it...

Oh, I didn't know about that. My friend Richard Paez socked Phelps and broke his glasses. Jake loved it, he was always down for Richard after that.

Was it hard to leave the mag? Was music at the point where it was overtaking your work at Thrasher?

I was over it. Jake knew it, I think. I wanted to play music. That's that. I remember walking into Jake's office and just sitting down and telling him that I quit. He was really cool about it. I know it sounds cheesy, but he said "If your heart isn't into it, then you shouldn't be doing it". He shook my hand and told me I was always welcome at Thrasher. 

Working for Thrasher had a pretty big influence on my life. I was young, 21, 22, 23 years old...  Thrasher isn't just a mag, it's the whole thing. I was proud to work and represent Thrasher. I learned how to take criticism, but also to stick by what you do. I learned that the most important thing, when you're making something, is to make sure it represents you, even if nobody gives a shit. I learned how to say "Fuck you, this is how I do this."

What about music? Did being around skateboarding help you get into music?

Yeah, all the music in the skate videos was rad. More than anything, it was the mood the music would put you in. You would skate differently depending on what you were listening to. If I was gonna skate a pool, I wanted to hear Slayer. If I was gonna skate a ledge, I'd want to hear hip-hop. If I was trying to do a line in a parking lot with like a bench, manual pad, and some stairs then I'd want to hear some punk rock or something. I really got into all styles of music early on. I played drums in the jazz band in high school too. I loved all the music in the first Stereo video, or Gonz's part in the Blind video, just cruising the streets to jazz music and killing it! The old H-Street videos too. I think the first Consolidated video had great music - Karma's section was where I first heard King Crimson.

What are you listening to at the moment?

Umm... I'm not really listening to music at the moment. I was listening to some stuff last year. The last Bright Eyes record is super good. Jenny and Johnny. The Dawes record is really good. Blake Mills made a record last year that's one of my favorites.

How did you get hooked up with Conor Oberst?

I was playing guitar on tour for my friend Jim Fairchild's band All Smiles. Jim was the guitar player in Grandaddy and was friends with a lot of people out there. Jim encouraged me to bring CDs of my own music to pass out to people, he's super cool. We played the last show of a tour in Omaha, Nebraska - I've always loved Omaha and the people there, just always a good vibe - and there was an after-party and they passed around a guitar, and I played a song. This guy Ian, who we had been hanging with the whole night, came up to me and asked if I had made records, or had a CD, so I gave him one. Ian turned out to be Conor Oberst's cousin, and he passed the CD along to him. I've since become really good friends with everyone who was at that party and of course, Conor.

You played a lot of shows in 2011. Do you get accustomed to touring life? 
I've been traveling in cars, vans, buses, trains and planes through either skateboarding or playing music for 15 years. It's become second nature to me.

What are your plans for 2012? Are you bringing 'Saturday Night Underwater' to Europe?

I'm not sure about 2012 yet, but I really want to get back over to Europe and play some more shows. I had a really great time playing over there this summer, the audiences were so cool and respectful. When the audience is like that, it really helps you play better, you want to give back and try to stoke people out.